Making Accessibility the New Standard in an AI-Driven World

00:00:00: Welcome to Signals, the podcast where we step back from a hype and look at what's shaping technology.

00:00:05: In each episode We talk with industry experts to surface trends question assumptions an unpack why things work The way they do.

00:00:11: today were focused not just on What's new but under decisions of developments that got us here in want To expect down-the road.

00:00:26: Hi I'm your host Michael Doughton And hear With me Today is Jemima Abu Jemama.

00:00:31: Thank You for Joining Me Today!

00:00:33: Hi Michael Thanks For Having Me.

00:00:35: So, tell me a little bit about yourself and what you've been working on.

00:00:38: Sure thing.

00:00:39: So like I said, my name is Jemima Abu and a senior associate product engineer at Case an alternative investment platform And i've been building websites since twenty seventeen now which Is crazy number of years.

00:00:52: A certified professional in accessibility core competencies as well As a Google developer expert on Microsoft MVP In web technologies.

00:01:01: so basically I'd Like to go through a lot Of conferences talk about disability and then people give me awards for it.

00:01:08: Sounds like a good start.

00:01:10: So you've got great career and focus on accessibility, tell me what it's like working in Accessibility right now?

00:01:20: That's an interesting question because I don't actually working accessibility.

00:01:23: So, I am just a front-end developer.

00:01:28: My daily job is building websites using like front end frameworks that mostly work with React right now and Because my company is finance facing it does have more.

00:01:38: It's an Interesting approach to accessibility because we are not fully financed facing.

00:01:42: in terms of the user end user We're just more like connecting brokers on funds or that kind of thing.

00:01:48: so it's like I feel very passionately about accessibility, so i tend to do it on my own spare time.

00:01:55: But its not like.

00:01:55: I work in the field directly because a lot of times I talk with people and it's either accessibility is their job or they're developers...like me!

00:02:04: And you know what?

00:02:05: I just don't care about accessibility.

00:02:06: So it's an interesting balance.

00:02:09: How do you feel when a frontend developer says well accessibility isn't really my job?

00:02:14: Yeah.

00:02:14: To me, it always sounds like you're saying It's not my job to build a useful website because what?

00:02:20: Like if your building an accessible website and I think to me is actually interesting the definition of accessibility right we'll say um with The general definition is like Accessibility is building products that everyone can use.

00:02:30: Right.

00:02:30: so the idea Is Everyone should be able to Use this thing.

00:02:33: So people Always Think oh If i Can't use it then works.

00:02:35: for Me it's like Newsflash Honey You're Not Every One Do you understand?

00:02:39: like if Your Building Does it Work Even if it Works For and it doesn't work for one person, that thing isn't accessible.

00:02:47: That's the fact of the matter.

00:02:48: so whenever I do hear developers say... So usually comes from a place where oh its just not business requirements or something.

00:02:55: we have time but to me is saying you're not spending your money on making websites useful.

00:03:04: yeah totally i see this alot in accessibility.

00:03:14: Sometimes when we're building things, we get so caught up in just getting it out the door that way.

00:03:20: We were like hey security accessibility all these things they can come later and The problem with that is that?

00:03:29: It's Way more expensive and difficult to add on later right?

00:03:33: So do you run into kind of some those problems as well?

00:03:36: yeah I think its this there.

00:03:38: is this like To be fair, it's not just related to accessibility.

00:03:41: Right?

00:03:41: In terms of developer when we're doing like accessibility security performance at the end of day if it works It works can you be better sure?

00:03:48: but The goal is let ship this as fast as possible and issue with that Is sometimes it's all right to compromise When there comes things like security and performance because like okay If this thing is Like three milliseconds slower than they could be it's like That's fine.

00:04:01: Not the end in world Let's just ship it.

00:04:03: well problem is like Accessibility has falling into field where it's like, oh, It's fine if it's not accessible.

00:04:08: But really shouldn't be, it should have been fine to deploy something that people can use.

00:04:13: so I think that is an interesting for me.

00:04:15: i feel Like That Is The Interesting Divide With Things.

00:04:17: If Accessibility Was Taking More And To Be Fair In Setting Regards Accessibility Is Default Standards Even Though People Don'T Think Of It Like That.

00:04:25: For Example If You Deploy A Website and the text on the background don't Have Any Contrasts or you Can't Read The Text Obviously, you would not deploy that website.

00:04:33: So that is an example of a universally accepted accessibility practice.

00:04:36: It's like if you're deploying something the text and background You should be able to see them clearly or If have an image we make sure it has some kind Of outline on.

00:04:43: so these are certain areas.

00:04:46: people do think Accessibility as default but they don't think of it as accessibility.

00:04:51: They just say oh well that was common sense.

00:04:53: I feel really good when other accessibility practices were also seen As common sense in same way Text being visible in the background to be seen as common sense

00:05:04: totally

00:05:05: it

00:05:06: It seems to me when you see In this sometimes even happens within people who are practicing accessibility But even more among those who really don't know and they're just kind of trying to do what makes sense.

00:05:19: They tend to focus a lot on vision oriented the visual aspect of things without even necessarily thinking about the auditory

00:05:26: or

00:05:27: cognitive, or even mobility concerns related to interacting with a website.

00:05:32: Sometimes those don't get front and center in their thinking.

00:05:37: do you feel like there's maybe some areas that get more focused than others?

00:05:42: Yeah, definitely.

00:05:42: Like you said the visual aspect is the major one that people think of when it comes to specifically because People tend approach things in a sense.

00:05:49: how would they use them?

00:05:50: So if I'm using my laptop If i am reading on website and thinking this is what im doing Im seeing myself scrolling through.

00:05:57: so make sure everything works in those aspects.

00:05:59: But then when it come to keyboard users screen readers braille like text to speech translations is like because I don't have to use those things, i'm not going to think about it that way.

00:06:08: Now me personally-I do love using a keyboard on my laptop...i don't

00:06:12: really

00:06:14: know what it is but just..it feels slower than using the keyboards and i feel like hacker man wants you get in there and use keyboards wherever he can.

00:06:24: so thats why for me its very easy to notice a lot of keyword failure or lack of focus.

00:06:29: state regularly, you are just going to defaults what I can see.

00:06:38: What is my primary sense?

00:06:40: And that's why we tend to get a lot more visual aspects of access covered but not the other aspect covered.

00:06:46: Totally totally so... You speak at conferences and produce content in this area..what gets really excited about doing?

00:06:58: Yeah, I think so.

00:06:59: when i first started before even starting learning how to build websites in my university or My second year of University.

00:07:06: I stayed In a room that was called the special needs Room So it's basically a room for students with disabilities and I stayed With two students who had visual disability.

00:07:14: One had partial loss vision one have complete loss of vision And they would always ask me To help them like do things on their phone Like check your email go through Facebook That kind Of thing because there are phones Would Have these accessibility features enabled Every single time i had to scroll away website for them.

00:07:28: I remember thinking how like, inconvenient it felt?

00:07:31: It's like why do i have to like scroll with two fingers?

00:07:33: or Why don't you double tap three fingers?

00:07:35: on some websites you scroll and they had parallax scroll.

00:07:37: And it's like, You just can't move anywhere.

00:07:39: sometimes you try to zoom in on the Zoom break the website.

00:07:42: I remember why are these features?

00:07:44: Like Why do these features make It so hard To use The website?

00:07:47: What is the experience They have So much different from the experience i have On my own phone.

00:07:52: Then finally got into web development and realized that Oh!

00:07:54: Its not These features Im making the websites.

00:07:56: How to Use Is That These Websites Were Not Built For These Features?

00:08:00: Thats why Things Arent Working When I first started Frontend Development Because I Had experience of inconvenience, or using bad websites.

00:08:08: It was like a lot of spikes basically outside.

00:08:10: I'm so tired of using bad website that i'm just going to make sure...I am doing everything in my power To Make Sure That Everybody Else Is Building Better Websites.

00:08:18: So that was kind of driving force and also the more you go into accessibility field.

00:08:23: it's crazy because its been years at this point And we are still talking about the same things We're Talking About.

00:08:28: Like Ten Years Ago People Are Still Putting On Click Hunters In Divs And it is like surely At This Point We would just reach for buttons.

00:08:35: Like what is the why?

00:08:37: Is this thing that we have to go over again and again?

00:08:40: So it's.

00:08:41: I think that isn't what the driving force is.

00:08:42: The fact like, I don't feel like there has been much of a change.

00:08:46: when I started compared totally Yeah,

00:08:50: yeah, I mean were still reminding people about alt text button.

00:08:53: And in here Here's the thing that frustrates me.

00:08:56: the

00:08:57: button is right there.

00:09:00: it's so much more work.

00:09:02: Yes, I feel like the thing is.

00:09:05: people always say that oh you know because if i do the button and have to get rid of all the styling?

00:09:09: You're doing the same styling on the dude!

00:09:11: Right

00:09:12: this is not...

00:09:15: oh you are doing your same amount.

00:09:17: frankly a lot more styling has

00:09:19: to

00:09:20: be focused.

00:09:21: they don't care about focus a click event on the div, you know?

00:09:25: But it's like... I feel whenever i give talk or access to anything.

00:09:28: I always try start out with button example and this is how much more code that needs.

00:09:32: right have same level of functionality as a button.

00:09:36: You need factor in focus state, you're throwing tab indexes, you need factor all key press handlers.

00:09:43: Why are we reinventing?

00:09:45: our field already exists.

00:09:47: so yeah Im very excited about not using buttons.

00:09:50: It sounds like we've kind of touched on some topics that may be part of one of your conference talks you're doing.

00:09:55: I can't believe it's not JavaScript, yeah You want to give a quick teaser as to what about with that?

00:10:01: That talks about.

00:10:02: Yeah sure so bad talk actually did evolve from its funny.

00:10:05: how that talking?

00:10:05: well basically ice to give A lot of talks on accessibility and then one time i gave a talk On the evolution of java screws And in that talk led me start looking into like newer features that are coming out And then I started discovering new features like things, details and popover.

00:10:19: Wait a minute!

00:10:19: Are you telling me there is a semantic element that exists?

00:10:22: That has all the accordion functionality... ...that i have been writing JavaScript code for

00:10:28: years?!

00:10:29: And I don't even have to like factor in making things accessible.

00:10:31: I didn't talk about any area labels, and why are people talking?

00:10:38: So basically i started doing a lot of research into what exactly are the somatic elements head, nav, footer.

00:10:47: It's like those are landmark elements.

00:10:49: sure but what about the actual functional element?

00:10:52: We have a lot of semantic elements in HM on CSS that can give us existing functionality and people just don't know.

00:10:58: It was the other thing to me because I'm like, I remember when I started out with front end development.

00:11:03: Like you would go on free code camp or W three schools or something and it's even the most basic of things.

00:11:08: they still teach you simple ways of building things.

00:11:11: so if i google how to build an accordion The first example is showing me a div And custom jaras will include.

00:11:19: At this stage details has been baseline supported for ten years.

00:11:23: Surely You should just be seeing the detail element now.

00:11:26: So yeah that really inspired.

00:11:28: there are so many things that I'm like, i can't believe this is not javascript.

00:11:36: And it's a talk that keeps giving because every single year new feature is coming out and then constantly... It's what does that Greek mythology of the ship?

00:11:45: The one where they change all parts on their ships.

00:11:50: That's how this talk has become!

00:11:55: But yeah, I think so.

00:11:59: So I'm giving that a web day out in March this year and given similar talk called your reacts app doesn't need all the JavaScripts at React Summit in Amsterdam in June.

00:12:09: And then I've been getting these international JavaScript conference.

00:12:16: It's honestly a very, it's a hit at conferences because I always have somebody coming up to me like oh i had no idea.

00:12:21: I could do any of that with JavaScript.

00:12:23: people are just went into my code and got rid off all my custom accordion components or replace them with details on the work.

00:12:29: so much better.

00:12:29: And they're like.

00:12:30: I know its crazy!

00:12:32: Funny how the web works.

00:12:38: I feel part is We get so focused on rapid delivery and kind of just doing the work that we don't take the time to learn what's out there.

00:12:50: And really explore our craft all the time, do you think?

00:12:54: It was

00:12:55: funny though because these things are much faster if you use a details element instead.

00:13:01: It's so much faster that you don't have to do as many tests or like, as much design.

00:13:04: Or it is so much better than actually building itself but then people just tend not reach for it.

00:13:09: I feel one of the reasons might be browser reports a lot.

00:13:13: when these new features come out you hear about it, like customizable selects just came out recently.

00:13:19: I think last year or so and then has been supported across Chrome maybe Safari but because its not fully supported a lot of people are like oh im just not going to reach for that And they may be in two years by the time it is fully supported The hype has died down or we just never ended up using it anyway, so people will still be creating custom dropouts even though we have this new feature that should handle all of that for you.

00:13:43: So I think yeah!

00:13:43: That is why like part of the talk as well... Like more conferences i can go to and the more people are aware that these things exist.

00:13:50: if i can change one person's codebase?

00:13:52: I've done a good deed..

00:13:54: Yeah for

00:13:54: sure!!

00:13:56: So what is it about?

00:14:00: um this space that has changed the most in the last couple of years.

00:14:06: I know that you've got another talk, for example.

00:14:09: That is putting accessibility into AI and it's with AI.

00:14:15: there are a lot of people both trying to utilize AI testing accessibility or constructing things.

00:14:23: maybe has problems later like what do you see in the space

00:14:26: right now?

00:14:27: Yeah, I think AI is a very fun field to be in right now.

00:14:31: Fun fields we're using it's everywhere.

00:14:33: you really can't escape it.

00:14:34: so what I have noticed about AI when i started using It Is that ai defaults too A lot of human bias.

00:14:40: So a lot Of the most popular components, right?

00:14:43: They are built in a certain way.

00:14:45: that might not be the best way.

00:14:47: But it's the most popular array is kind of like when jQuery was a thing you know.

00:14:50: if I'm googling how to change your class name somebody telling me oh just use jQuery and i don't want to use jquery.

00:14:55: tell me how do this.

00:14:56: but because its the most popularity people assume its the best ways.

00:15:00: so thats kinda how AI works.

00:15:01: now A lot of code generated by AI has been the most poplar standards for the longest time.

00:15:07: those werent necessarily the most accessible standard.

00:15:09: So what is happening?

00:15:11: just like repeating the human bias of not caring about accessibility.

00:15:15: So if you generate code in AI, If you're just telling it build this website or develop this design to code It will most likely do what has been the popular standard and then end up with an inaccessible web site.

00:15:27: so that's what I have seen as a common thread In the tools that i've used.

00:15:32: unless you specifically tell them to care about Accessibility is going to generate an accessible websites.

00:15:39: Yeah absolutely Is there a technique you found to mitigate this or work around it?

00:15:48: The thing with AI is like, It's very smart child.

00:15:55: If I'm saying generate a website and it will literally do that for me just putting one word accessible changes the entire prompting of tool.

00:16:07: so what would be better if an accessible site was inherently default, because all websites should be accessible.

00:16:14: Because our website should be useful.

00:16:16: but because humans have never had no approach accessibility like that access has not been the default.

00:16:20: it's usually after thought That what we're seeing with AI tools now Accessibility is also an Afterthought.

00:16:25: so for me It's just simple things I'm studying and oh make this thing accessible or make sure this thing uses a semantic element.

00:16:33: Or sometimes I'll be like, for this custom component is there a html or CSS alternative that could achieve the same features in a semantic way?

00:16:41: So it's mostly just talking to it and for me that has been the easiest... AI tools are a lot easier to convince things accessible than developers because they don't have spend much time on them.

00:16:54: It will generate accessable code anyway?

00:16:59: Yeah, for sure.

00:17:00: So one of the questions that I always like to ask people is who is this technology?

00:17:07: For and in this particular case This is kind of a two-prong question right Who has accessibility?

00:17:12: four And who should be learning accessibility?

00:17:17: That's a good question.

00:17:19: i think Accessibility is where everyone full stop regardless of if you have a disability or don't, accessibility means building things that everybody can use.

00:17:28: So I think the good example for how accessible it should be is right now we have significantly aging population.

00:17:34: so previously in the past life expectancy was not high and we didn't really need to think about oh, seventy plus year olds they kind.

00:17:45: But now we do have people living longer.

00:17:47: So if you're building technologies, that in twenty years the aging population is not going to be able use because something as simple they can't zoom-in on their phone or they are unable... The text isn't large enough for them and contrasts aren't clear enough.

00:18:00: things like this You are creating technology where it's.

00:18:04: your buildings needs to fail Because at twenty years these things won't be accessible customer base that you have right now.

00:18:12: So, thats how I think of accessibility.

00:18:13: it's not just building things and saying oh we need to like think about screen readers when its thinking about all these things.

00:18:19: but what needs approach from the perspective off?

00:18:21: We are building this thing to stand a test or time were building into last.

00:18:24: It should last now ,it should still work in twenty years.

00:18:28: so thats why i think about Accessibility.

00:18:29: is buildings thinks everybody can use regardless of age disability network, region anything like that.

00:18:37: just build useful things and then let them take care of themselves.

00:18:41: Totally!

00:18:43: And so who should be learning accessibility?

00:18:45: Honestly I feel like...I used to say previously that accessibility is a responsibility for everyone.

00:18:51: right because from the discovery stage with clients it's all you want.

00:18:59: tell us who your client base is, the target audience for this thing.

00:19:03: We also want to help you avoid any legal ramifications.

00:19:06: so we're going make sure that these things can work with all of those people.

00:19:09: Going down into design.

00:19:10: it's like building things and making sure I get in contrast.

00:19:13: The text is displayed in a way easy-to read.

00:19:15: It's not just all things like spacing or anything Obviously down to developers because they have to start translating code.

00:19:22: There are many codes involved whether using semantic elements or putting in like keyboard handlers, and even going to QA at the end user on testing.

00:19:32: It's making sure that sometimes there are ways you wouldn't think of using a certain website And it is somebody else who says oh but this particular device doesn't work.

00:19:42: So I would always say everybody's job But also recently more so the developer's job because now we do have AI.

00:19:50: Its alot easier make things accessible than previously.

00:19:55: I think the biggest pushback i did get in the past is that they just don't have time for it.

00:19:59: If a client gives you a deadline of like oh we have one month and want to get this thing production in one month, accessibility never on anybody's forefront at that point As long as it's working, ship it and get it done.

00:20:09: You know?

00:20:09: It always like MVP was the most viable product that we can ship out and accessibility is never included in that.

00:20:15: but now because we have AI its so much easier to ship things faster So We Have More Time To Spend On Making Things Accessible.

00:20:22: I think as developers we have a stronger responsibility Now for making things accessible.

00:20:27: Also you don't even need anybody permission.

00:20:30: make the code access, they're not going to go in and delete.

00:20:34: Like if you generate something with AI just make it accessible or tell AI to make it successful.

00:20:38: at that point I feel like more developers is a mindset shift Just making sure your agents are prompting them to make things accessible And solving half of problems related to accessibility.

00:20:53: Yeah i think in perfect world all All of the rules on a project would be involved in accessibility, but this is also okay.

00:21:02: It's like you say where just one person doing The right thing can have a tremendous impact and the overall outcomes.

00:21:12: so What do you see coming?

00:21:17: in the near future, like what are some of changes that you're looking forward to right now?

00:21:22: Is it just improved standards or improvements on technology and browser.

00:21:27: Yeah, I

00:21:30: think there's definitely been so many changes that AI has had on accessibility in general not just related to web accessibility.

00:21:36: So we see this app called Be My Eyes previously was an app where you could log-in and help people with disabilities carry out certain tasks And now you have like AI versions of that make it a lot easier for people do these things or even just things generated... Like i noticed in a lot of websites they will have generated old texts by default, thanks to using AI.

00:21:57: So it's like even if you're posting something on LinkedIn, it generates the alt text by defaults so you don't have to because previously people would be like oh I do not know how to put in alt text.

00:22:05: they'll just put generic things a sign A woman, full stone.

00:22:10: So it's like now you have AI being able to do all those things for us and I think that one way the AI does thing really well is a lot of... It's very good at human language processing.

00:22:20: so taking things on saying oh this thing is probably like a twenty dollar bill or this And that's really useful to somebody who has like visual disabilities and does not have time for someone else help them verify things.

00:22:32: Or even just the all text generation or text-to-speech outputs, so I think there is a lot AI has been doing in the field of accessibility which is very beneficial when it comes to web accessibility specifically because we're getting more AI generated websites.

00:22:48: It isn't an issue as much as human issues.

00:22:52: people have just not cared about accessibility in the past, so they don't care if AI is generating inaccessible code.

00:22:59: If we did care about accessibility then AI would also be generating accessible codes.

00:23:02: I think it always starts from like the awareness angle getting humans to care more and then AI will follow suit.

00:23:09: So

00:23:12: there was a project that i was on not long ago related to Accessibility & Education.

00:23:18: It's an education company producing content limitation.

00:23:23: we ran into for the AI generation of Alt-Tex.

00:23:26: in that situation is it did a great job describing image and they even managed to find some models specifically trained on engineering diagrams, for example.

00:23:38: It would do an amazing job at describing diagram.

00:23:41: we found that it was actually doing a better job on lot of cases than the humans were doing with describing these images, which is awesome.

00:23:50: The thing we've found they couldn't do is contextualize.

00:23:54: why am I showing you this image in the context of this educational material?

00:24:04: How does this image supporting the content?

00:24:08: And so those are the cases where we had to go in as humans and kind of edit that, and make sure it was reflective of those types of things.

00:24:17: We were trying to convey-

00:24:18: That does make a lot sense.

00:24:19: kinda thing you say about like AI just being like smart child?

00:24:21: It's like I can't tell your things but he might not understand the relation between them.

00:24:26: So yes its able to describe this perfectly complex engineering diagram.

00:24:31: But why is it in these files specifically?

00:24:34: Yeah, exactly.

00:24:36: I think it's great because there is still human impute needed for these things to work perfectly.

00:24:42: so at this stage AI isn't the end-all solution.

00:24:46: AI is a tool that humans can then use to produce better output than we were producing previously.

00:24:52: That was my opinion on it.

00:24:54: like.

00:24:54: i don't think AI will solve everything that has been a problem in the world.

00:24:58: I think humans have very strong rules of play but AI would definitely help us do these things a lot faster than we've been doing in the past?

00:25:07: Oh, like in that situation I don't even know.

00:25:09: We had tens of thousands of images that have been produced and not ever had alt text It was almost an impossible task to just do it all by hand right?

00:25:23: So it made, so that we could do a thing.

00:25:26: otherwise would have been just prohibitive.

00:25:28: Exactly and also like freeze up some of your time too because now you've done that.

00:25:35: It's easier to fix what somebody else has done than start something.

00:25:40: if I want generate this create this email or this article and I'll go in.

00:25:46: And be like, yeah no i would never see that!

00:25:48: I don't like how that sounds...and for me it's a lot easier because you already have these boilerplates?

00:25:53: Yeah..I can actually do the work now.

00:25:55: think about how to set everything up.

00:25:57: so well

00:25:58: then in video captions YouTube has been producing automatic video captions for years and years and honestly does a really good job.

00:26:08: I do a lot of streaming and stuff.

00:26:13: So for one hour video, it would take five hours to produce the transcript by hand especially when you're trying to get all the timings in everything right at least.

00:26:24: but with an automatic transcript It produces the text sets the timing's.

00:26:30: All i have To go through is proof reading.

00:26:31: correct The words that got wrong?

00:26:33: It takes like ten minutes exactly.

00:26:36: You're too correct.

00:26:39: So it really makes us so that we can do so much more with the use of good use Of those tools in a way.

00:26:46: That is not Not encroaching on anybody, right?

00:26:51: Exactly even if you wear green all sources now there's still five hours or somebody else this time Right long-time to do anything.

00:27:00: well

00:27:00: It's its timing money.

00:27:01: You can't be spending another things are making other thing accessible and producing other value In other ways.

00:27:05: yeah So one of the, you kind of touched on this a little bit.

00:27:11: But what are the excuses I hear about?

00:27:13: not just accessibility but all kinds of different design decisions.

00:27:17: in software is well we're data driven company and our data says

00:27:24: We don't

00:27:24: have visual impaired users or we don't Have mobile users as One that i heard once And they showed me The Data They were like.

00:27:32: see None Of Our Users Is Using Mobile so we Don't Have To Focus On This.

00:27:38: Have you ever actually sat down and tried to use your software on mobile?

00:27:44: Well, no.

00:27:46: Why would I do that?

00:27:47: just sit in

00:27:47: my computer.

00:27:50: Let me explain to you why your data says nobody's using mobile.

00:27:53: It's because they can't accomplish a single one of the tasks They need to be able to do so.

00:27:58: Your data is simply reflecting the state of your product.

00:28:02: it's not in indication in any way, shape or form of who your audience can wood or should be if you're doing your job correctly.

00:28:11: Yeah I think it's always so funny because like how do not see the relation here?

00:28:16: Like oh nobody uses this thing on mobile.

00:28:18: Nobody can!

00:28:20: People try to go and that doesn't work So they leave immediately.

00:28:23: It is not like people are like Oh i love getting my laptop to use your phone.

00:28:28: Do you know everybody has a phone right now If you tell me out with everyone Nobody has ever thought, let me visit your software on my phone that I have in my hand at all times.

00:28:39: How do you not see this problem?

00:28:42: That definitely is the thing comes up.

00:28:43: a lot of people always use data to back things.

00:28:45: they're like oh we don't have users that used this browser so were just going into account for it.

00:28:50: and i'm like Do you know how users are using that browser or do are just not able to use your site, so they go somewhere else.

00:28:57: It's kind of like that thing where you get statistics from a very niche group and it is like oh we went into the streets of London doing a poll on the best British food.

00:29:09: obviously people will say you're asking people in this specific environment what do It's like?

00:29:15: you need to broaden your horizons.

00:29:18: That is actually something we see a lot in accessibility, it's like oh!

00:29:20: We don't have... I'm even if you did have users who can screen readers You wouldn't know because they're not able use the site.

00:29:26: so once they get to your site or just not using your product at all Because somebody else has advertised how much they care about accessibility So someone that has this ability will go there and I won't bother coming up with their products as well.

00:29:40: You are inherently alienating specific parts of user base just because you don't care about this thing.

00:29:46: So to me, it's interesting because I think business people are so focused on like increasing revenue getting more users and everything but then when everybody comes access with they're like oh we don't cared that sex of people.

00:29:56: there is one point.

00:29:58: seven billion in the world have some form of disability or other.

00:30:02: And your saying You Don't Care About One Point Seven Billion Do you know how much money?

00:30:06: That Is Crazy To Me.

00:30:08: Well

00:30:09: The Wild Thing Is That Statistic Is Effectively People cannot use tools without assistive technology.

00:30:20: There's billions more people that kind of would benefit from it Right.

00:30:29: I have never seen a case where making an website accessible made it worse for people, you know?

00:30:34: It's like oh we put focus outlines and now he looks ugly.

00:30:38: just make better outlines!

00:30:40: That is not the skill issue.

00:30:42: You don't need to use large glaring blue outline.

00:30:46: Just have nicer looking visual outlines And your regular users will appreciate them as well because even power users People that love powering through sites see how fast they can get things done.

00:30:56: It's always useful to know what part of the screen you're on, even if I click a button or something where my phone.

00:31:02: So it is like these things.

00:31:03: when you make your website accessible that fact can be used for one person real world.

00:31:08: Like the fact that we have ramps now, it's great for people with wheelchairs but also good for people in luggage.

00:31:13: because if you are trying to go somewhere and coming from airports like every time I'm trying i'm coming from the airport...I always check the tube stops and make sure this stop is using has a lift!

00:31:21: Because I am not dragging my luggage up the stairs.

00:31:22: so by..if you were like oh....we just don't get people with wheelchair.

00:31:26: use the subway so we're no going put lifts anywhere.

00:31:30: Now I have a lot of luggage.

00:31:31: What am i supposed to do?

00:31:31: Like just log it up on the stairs, so The fact is when you make things that everybody can use It works better for everyone but it's always.

00:31:38: it's crazy To me like how people never approach it from their angle.

00:31:41: They're just like oh this the way it works now Is fine.

00:31:44: So we're not going to bother improving its own off chance That it can't make it better For somebody else because We don't think those People are using our software anyway.

00:31:51: right.

00:31:52: well and one Of the psychological principles at play is that people tend to They take their own view of themselves and how they interact with things, And they project that onto other people because it's a perfect example.

00:32:10: It is not weird to do this but we don't try to expand our horizons.

00:32:17: and its exactly why diversity is such an important aspect in building software especially about building UIs and accessible software

00:32:28: Exactly.

00:32:28: I call it, is the classic?

00:32:30: It works on my machine syndrome.

00:32:31: like every developer you just think that oh this thing works for me so it must be fine and then it goes... The user's like Oh i can't use these things because of this and they're like oh it works in my machine And he was like are we gonna ship your laptop to clients?

00:32:44: no!

00:32:44: So make work for everyone.

00:32:46: You know That's a general idea and I think that is why awareness Is very important part of accessibility Because a lot of times people don't even know that there are other situations they could be thinking about when building certain things.

00:32:59: So some people might think like, oh I've covered all the bases i've made sure it has light and dark mode...I can click using a keyboard and then somebody comes up and you're like how's the text switch functionality?

00:33:11: or what if I'm using a braille keypad?

00:33:13: So I think that is the thing that accessibility, because to be fair it's a very daunting task if you think about.

00:33:22: The fact there are so many people in this world who have so many kinds of disabilities and will be nearly impossible factor all them when they're reading your website.

00:33:29: Some people have like disabilities directly contrasting with somebody else but say oh I'm doing high-contrast for these readers can make it harder or maybe their color blinder something.

00:33:39: what do?

00:33:44: Accessibility is a very complicated field if you decide to think about it like that.

00:33:48: But what I say, as long as we care and meeting the basic minimum... The fact may not be perfectly accessible for one hundred percent of world but as long trying targets let's make sure it works with screen readers or keyboard functionality there.

00:34:04: Let us focus states As long.

00:34:06: target basics.

00:34:10: You are doing better than most people out in first place.

00:34:14: Well, and one of the things that I try to get people to do when they're starting on an accessibility initiative.

00:34:20: People are so terrified to publicize this state of their accessibility When They Know They're Not Doing well unlike you've got two You have To explain.

00:34:29: Look Here's The Current State.

00:34:31: Here's what we're currently working on to try and make things better.

00:34:35: The effort that I'm putting into it, here is how you can contact us.

00:34:38: so let know about problems And this should be the first thing you do because You really want open a dialogue Because if your user base has been impacted by design decisions Then you have to be welcoming or inviting as part of doing

00:34:55: Yeah, exactly.

00:34:55: I think like what is having your accessibility just a manifesto or policy on your site?

00:35:00: It's also really good way of improving your accessibility because it might be something as simple as you just publish one page document and we've made sure that this thing is WCAG compliant, WCAg.

00:35:12: These are the features in Met.

00:35:13: if any issues send them here.

00:35:15: so don't have to publish every single thing done requirements we need, and if you have any issues just contact us here.

00:35:23: And then that also opens a dialogue for your clients or users to say oh actually I would prefer this one thing didn't work when i was using the tool because companies value customer feedback more than developer imputes.

00:35:38: So if I'm saying, oh we need to make sure this thing is accessible because of these people and those people it's gonna be like yeah but we don't have time so just get it done.

00:35:44: But even one customer should say that Oh i can use this one thing then it's okay.

00:35:49: now It's an issue Because This Is Affecting The Bottom Line Of The Business.

00:35:53: So I think having an accessibility policy its a great starting point Even If You Don't Know Where To Start From.

00:35:59: Yeah For Sure You've touched on the standards, WCAG.

00:36:05: Obviously the W-three is involved in a lot of this.

00:36:08: what I find some developers don't realize when you're having these conversations W-three.

00:36:23: from the very beginning, HTML was designed specifically to be an accessible web standard.

00:36:28: And we've been using that whole time.

00:36:30: so it... The history of the Web is very interesting with accessibility because It has always been a first class citizen and I think That's only more recently than really gotten pushback on that.

00:36:43: I blame JavaScript for this!

00:36:46: Seriously though?

00:36:46: You're right.. I think you are right.

00:36:47: its actually introduction of Javascript On the Web

00:36:50: Because it's before JavaScript, right?

00:36:52: Everything was semantic.

00:36:53: We were throwing tables everywhere.

00:36:55: that wasn't the best way to know about at least your data.

00:36:57: or if in your head you're like oh I need present data is going to be on a table and it's presented Like i have my header had myself.

00:37:03: so things like they made sense.

00:37:05: You could see like the structure exceed the semantic elements.

00:37:07: And then we got javascript and he was like giving candy.

00:37:10: two three-year old.

00:37:12: We are we have no limitations.

00:37:15: We don't even need the marquee tag anymore, we can make our own custom marquees in JavaScript now.

00:37:21: So it's like...we had so much fun when JavaScript was introduced and then we forgot about all of the semantics that previous because with the advance of CSS people were making acid trip websites.

00:37:38: Space

00:37:38: Jam themes are like,

00:37:40: people

00:37:40: have all those counters on their website.

00:37:42: Web development was fun.

00:37:43: then.

00:37:43: you know the goal is just getting out of fun websites and I think it's because companies didn't really care about performance or things.

00:37:51: they were just displaying a static page to your users under the idea that you get them calling in the phone.

00:37:57: But then JavaScript came, and suddenly everything is web-first.

00:37:59: People can contact you directly.

00:38:01: You never have to go see anybody in person.

00:38:03: The Web has improved so much but because JavaScript didn't have those semantic elements.

00:38:08: In itself JavaScript cares about a lot of other things like performance And speed not typing strictly.

00:38:16: I think there definitely was shift.

00:38:19: the web was then approached because JavaScript is known as supporting HTML.

00:38:23: HTML, it's just like end results of JavaScript.

00:38:26: cause now we have React and were writing JavaScript directly.

00:38:29: I also blame react for a lot of divs.

00:38:31: instead of botting things.

00:38:33: Now people will build a button component And it's a div inside.

00:38:38: It's a button components.

00:38:38: Just use a button.

00:38:39: We don't need to do this.

00:38:42: So yeah, I think definitely Like JavaScript kind of flipped Web development on its head, you know?

00:38:48: So it's like things that were standard before are no longer standard now because we just go in the framework routes.

00:38:55: The reason why I still do like giving my talk on using let's going back to use HTML and CSS for things that we should be using.

00:39:01: HTML or CSS work Because they do so much better than JavaScript We're saving so much time too.

00:39:07: Well, see JavaScript causes accessibility problems because security problems cause performance problems.

00:39:12: I mean So what external forces do you currently kind of changing the shape of web development in general and Kind of building accessible websites?

00:39:34: In particular

00:39:36: Like we said, the major shift happening right now is definitely AI movement.

00:39:40: So in terms of AI shifting things or seeing things like Figma make for generating design you have all your millions of vibe coding tools there.

00:39:48: so people are like oh!

00:39:49: We don't even need web developers anymore?

00:39:51: I think this shift it's getting to a stage where its seeming that they're starting building websites themselves.

00:39:57: and thats an interesting approach actually.

00:39:59: because if at end of day other tools because you're only building tools for an audience of one, then that actually might be an interesting approach to accessibility.

00:40:09: Because people will be building tools that target their own needs specifically and if they are not thinking about shipping it out than they don't need to care how others use them.

00:40:18: so I think there may also have the advantage in having more people starting care about like how they're using these tools.

00:40:26: because if it gets to a stage where I built this thing that's working for myself and now i have stopped thinking oh how am I going to ship this thing so other people can't use.

00:40:33: It is also gonna start prompting me think of, How are other people using those tools?

00:40:36: And That Is kind Of the basis of accessibility.

00:40:38: just Thinking of how Other People Are Using These Tools.

00:40:40: So I Think There'S Definitely An AI Shift!

00:40:42: I Think We'Re Also Seeing A Lot More Like In Terms Of The Vibe Coding.

00:40:45: we're Also Seeing People Being A lot more Responsible For the end-to-end process of building a product.

00:40:50: So now somebody can be like their own PM, their own designer with your own developer and they're on QA.

00:40:55: so it's like you have one person teams doing everything?

00:40:58: That might also solve the issue of having to have back and forth before you make certain changes because now you don't have to convince anybody To improve something on your code.

00:41:09: You can just do it yourself.

00:41:10: I think that is... Everything.

00:41:12: there are ups and downs to it.

00:41:13: Of course people will be creating like terrible websites because they don't have an understanding of what actually the basics are.

00:41:22: a good website, but maybe we'll also people taking a lot more direct interest in making websites better, because that might be what is now the defining factors.

00:41:31: Because if the fact is everybody can vibe code their website will make your website better than what somebody else has vibrated using the same tools.

00:41:37: it may just be your approach to it.

00:41:39: so The fact that you're web sites have like A perfect lighthouse score might actually Be the force that drives someone.

00:41:45: use your thing over something That's somebody else.

00:41:49: One of the things that I find interesting about this, and it's kind of one my concerns a little bit is...one of the cases made for AI in development.

00:42:02: It makes it easier for anybody to do it And thats great but its actually creating massive divide between those who have the coding skill and those that do not, because you're going to see... Those with a wide range of skills are gonna know hey I need to make this accessible.

00:42:20: I need some idea how to test for it but if your coming in and never done any development before You don't even know what concerns there needs be aware And so you will produce things far inferior Not being aware of challenges or problems involved.

00:42:37: We've seen early products go to market from people that didn't know anything about building products, they were terrible.

00:42:47: Disasters because of this.

00:42:49: and so my concern is Is the state of accessibility going to decline for a while?

00:42:56: Because on one hand you've got it.

00:42:59: It's really enabling those of us who are in space already To do amazing things work faster better.

00:43:06: But on the other hand, it's improving the ability for other folks to potentially introduce things that aren't there.

00:43:12: Like where do you see that balance?

00:43:14: I think It's an interesting thing because i feel like For every tool That has been vibe coded and ships of production And they've made a bunch Of money...I don't Think They had A good developer..i think they Had a Good sales person Because what You were good at was selling The Tool Right!And then when it comes down To it....You've generated the Revenue And your'e like oh i need Make this Thing Better.

00:43:32: Then you go hire a developer to come in and make it better.

00:43:35: So I think that is honestly where i see A lot of vibe coding tools going, vibe coding is not...I don't think vibe coding Is great for developers!

00:43:41: I think It's Great For Sales People Because now they can Make That The Next Phase We've Always Been Talking About And They Can Shoot It and They Can Raise Like Their Five Hundred K In Revenue?

00:43:51: And then They Can Hire Somebody To Go In And Make It Better.

00:43:54: so That's What I See Heading But I Also Think That At Least From what I've Seen a good learning opportunity.

00:44:00: Like we've seen cases where somebody is like, oh their product was revealing the API key and they were not aware.

00:44:06: then they got hacked because it did not know that these are things you needed to... They didn't do anything about encryption or security or something.

00:44:14: so there's been an opportunity for them.

00:44:17: once this happened how can I solve this?

00:44:20: And now they're aware of what kind of thing needs to be done.

00:44:24: So maybe in the same way accessibility.

00:44:26: There's constant lawsuits related to accessibility.

00:44:30: I think it just takes getting sued once.

00:44:32: And then people just

00:44:33: go,

00:44:34: you kind of start to care about.

00:44:35: when I used to work in e-commerce we would have a lot of clients that they would come to us and be like oh We had this website before and we got it lawsuit.

00:44:42: so now we really need to revamp on those People.

00:44:44: there will be the ones prompting for accessibility even Before we asked for its but the one's are never been sued.

00:44:49: They'd be like Oh It's not an issue or we don't care about it.

00:44:51: So i think everything is learning opportunity.

00:44:54: Are releasing websites aren't inaccessible?

00:44:56: He Just Takes One lawsuit and Then They Will Get On Its actually stop making these things accessible.

00:45:01: So I think it's great that we are, To be fair, I feel like developers.

00:45:11: we just have a bit of a good complex.

00:45:12: You know used to be like Oh code and better than people that you're not.

00:45:16: It is the words on the keyboard.

00:45:18: Let's get science, you know.

00:45:21: So i think it's great That We are seeing more People Get Into Development Get into Coding Or Just Be More Excited About Tech in general Because Of AI.

00:45:29: because one Thing That I do notice that It's happening in the AI field is that it's reducing the number of people coming through standard requirements.

00:45:37: People are not excited to study computer science anymore, they don't want to do bootcamp because at the end of day companies won't hire junior developers and AI can do everything a junior developer does.

00:45:46: so if you're going to vibe code by themselves or building your own product we will ensure that people still keep.

00:45:54: We can retain the human aspect in tech and we're not just like phasing everybody out because of AI.

00:45:59: So I for one, am a big fan of vibe coding Because everyone will have to learn it less than on way or another.

00:46:04: Yeah For sure.

00:46:07: What would you say is the top thing that you want your audience take away today from this discussion?

00:46:15: Yeah, sure.

00:46:15: So I would say if you are using AI whether you have been developing for years now where we just get into vibe coding Just care about the product to your building.

00:46:24: Remember that at the end of the day You're building this thing For somebody else To use.

00:46:27: If you're building Your own tool Have fun with it.

00:46:31: Do whatever you want, put red text on the blue background.

00:46:33: nobody is going to stop if that's what You like.

00:46:35: but If your are building something That Is Going To Be Used By Multiple People?

00:46:39: If Your Goal Is To Build A Globally Renowned Product Make Sure This Product Is Useful For Everybody And It'S Being Able To be Used by Everybody.

00:46:47: Prompt Your Agents To Make Things Accessible.

00:46:49: Include Workflow Instructions care about things like accessibility or performance, or using semantic elements in place of custom implementations.

00:46:58: When you are testing for things test with different tools.

00:47:00: don't just use a keypad, test the mouse and load screen reader.

00:47:04: One thing I'd like to tell people is whenever i do an accessibility workshop we're going put a block overlay on your screen and use a screen reader on the keyboard.

00:47:12: And see if you can still carry out to basic functionality of your website, because If You Can Do That.

00:47:17: that is the barest minimum for making a website.

00:47:20: So I think those are my tips.

00:47:21: It's just it.

00:47:21: always Think about people who're building products For and how they get better product.

00:47:26: so thats not even one thing.

00:47:28: but those will be summarizing tips.

00:47:31: Yeah,

00:47:33: fantastic.

00:47:34: So where can people reach out or follow you online?

00:47:37: If they

00:47:38: if your contact me like it can reach out to me on LinkedIn.

00:47:40: so that's Jimaimah Abu.

00:47:41: That's J E M. I am a last name ABU.

00:47:45: just send me the message on linkedin.

00:47:47: i do love contacting People.

00:47:48: I'm also available On ADP lists if You want To Like Set up A call Or Anything.

00:47:53: I Do Love Talking About Accessibility so Feel free to Reach out to Me There or anything with Hits like Frontend Development or Public Speaking Yara Yara yara.

00:47:59: Feel Free to Reach Out to Me on

00:48:03: adp list It same.

00:48:05: Thank you so much for joining me today.

00:48:09: It was a really great discussion!

00:48:11: So thanks for joining us on another episode of Signals, please be sure to follow DevMio at devm.io.